Isaiah 46:9-10. That’s why you need a (respectful and reverential) kick in your Arminian pants

 

One of the most controversial doctrines in Christianity is the role of a person’s will in coming to salvation. I am one of those who believe that the unregenerate will should be rebaptised total swill. In other word’s I’m a Calvinist. The very mention of Calvin sends Arminians (who are the bulk of Christians) and Jews into a tizz; for different reasons. The Arminian accuses Calvin of turning people into robots; the Jew accuses him of being horrible to Jews.

 

There is one passage in the Bible that should settle this matter of “free” will – but won’t.

 

Isaiah 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.

 

If you believe that, you, an unregenerate person, can/has come to Christ (ultimately) on your own steam (you get to make the final decision), you could find yourself in hot heavenly water, for you are the person that must also say that Christ is begging people to come to him but in most cases fails. But how can God fail when it is clear that “I will do all my pleasure.” Do you really believe that God gets a kick out of failure? Yep, that’s what you must think BUT  will not to.

 

English: Jacobus Arminius

English: Jacobus Arminius (Photo credit: Wikipedia) That’s why you need a kick in your Arminian pants.

 

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42 thoughts on “Isaiah 46:9-10. That’s why you need a (respectful and reverential) kick in your Arminian pants

  1. “that Christ is begging people to come to him but in most cases fails..” – Raph, you must stop thinking of God in a worldly sense. His ways are not our ways.

    Man sins despite his upright nature – Eccl. 7:29

    Created in Gods image Gen. 9:6, I Cor. 11:7, James 3:9

    Every sinner is the author of his own moral depravity. He becomes a sinner after he reaches the “age of accountability Isaiah 7:16, Deut. 1:39, Rom. 2:15, Rom. 5:14, Rom. 9:11

    Gods law is written in our hearts Rom. 2: 14,15

    ~ And, thank goodness to Google for a quick research on a vital subject in minimal available time – This is pretty much my take on the subject, so well put on this forum : http://www.jesusplusnothing.com/questions/freewillelection.htm.

    I believe in election not in the way the World would believe it as God is not of the world. As I said before – How can we concieve eternity and omniscience -All-knowledge?

    Deuteronomy 30:19, 20 .. as another put it, “Had God predestinated each Israelite either to love him and gain life or to disregard him and merit death, His words would have been both meaningless and insincere. Do you believe that God, “a lover of justice” and the very personification of love, would act in such an arbitrary way?” Psalm 37:28; 1 John 4:8

    20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. John 17:20-21

    Why would the Lord Jesus Christ ask the Father for those who will believe in Him through the word of the chosen apostles? .. Those who Will believe in Him.

    On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. John 7:37
    (The illustration is not Jesus going around Splashing living water on those who are pre-ordained, but rather an offer to receive a free gift given of a Loving God)

    “17 The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. Rev. 22:17

    Believe – Repent – Receive the Gift of Life

    (1Kings 8:47-48; Psalm 7:12; Jeremiah 5: 1-3; Matt.3:2; Matt.4:17; Luke13:3; Luke 15:7,10; Luke 24:47; Act 2:38; Acts 8:22;…. )

    We are without excuse.

    • Karen you use those verses to prove that man has a good nature. One of your “proofs” is:
      “though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—
      (Romans 9:11 ESV).

      You intimate that this means that because they (and all children – see your other verses) have not yet “done” any evil YET, they must have a “good” NATURE.”

      You are denying Original sin, and thus the fall of all human beings, who because of the fall, have been born with a corrupt nature/image of God. In such a view, I can’t see how you could possibly grasp Romans 9 and all the other verses that state clearly that the will of man plays no role at all in coming to Christ.

      Once you deny the Fall all humans in Adam, you have made the journey to Arminianism (man makes the final decision about his salvation) certain. Yet there are many Arminians who do believe in the “radical corruption” caused by the Fall. They have a more difficult time reconciling their corrupt nature (that does not want to seek God) and their “free will” (that may want to seek God).

      • Once you deny the Fall all humans in Adam, you have made the journey to Arminianism (man makes the final decision about his salvation) certain.
        Nothing in this world can be more false that this words. This is Pelagianism, and not Arminianism.

        The whole problem is: the Total Depravity implies an Irresistible Grace?

        A book to you: The Other Side of Calvinism, by Laurence M. Vance.

        Nothing new, even in the United States, hahaha!

              • Nope, my boy. Calvinism is NOT the Gospel – sorry, the ‘Theorem of Charles Spurgeon’ is egregiously false.

                My nickname is just a pun with the Atheism. I was a former Agnostic Atheist, now I am a believer in the God of Israel and your son Jesus Christ, The Chosen One.

                And this is just my modus operandi: I’m not a Calvinist, so my definitions of terms are completely useless. I simply use definitions from real Calvinistic sources, like the Canons of Dort.

                It is a less error-prone approach.

                  • Not at all. The idea “Calvinism=Gospel” is patently wrong, but there are some very useful sermons from Spurgeon – mainly those about Total Depravity and some comments about the unlimited Atonement (especially, ‘To Timothy’ Missives).

                    • Readers would be very grateful if you could give us one reason to buttress your general statement that Calvinism is wrong. One statement about one useful bit of Spurgeon you found would also be nice.

                    • I will cite the Limited Atonement.

                      Commenting on 1 Timothy 2:3-6, for instance, Spurgeon said:
                      “What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. ‘All men,’ say they, — ‘that is, some men’: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said ‘some men’ If he had meant some men. ‘All men,’ say they; ‘that is, some of all sorts of men’: as if the Lord could not have said ‘All sorts of men’ if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written ‘all men,’ and unquestionably he means all men. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it…. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God” (C.H. Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 1 Timothy 2:3,4, vol. 26, pp. 49-52).

                      A drop of sense in a pool of ‘I don’t like you, Pelagian kid!’.

                    • There’s a difference between Arminian pants and Pelagian pants. The latter deserves a no-holds-barred kick in their Pelagian pants.

                      Credulo, where do you think Spurgeon was going with this interpretation?

                    • Spurgeon wasn’t a theologian, and your sermons are very practical – in fact he was a very prolific evangelist. But this is just a contradictory claim of Spurgeon – he believed that God desires all people to be saved, but he also belived that God makes no provision for the sins of some part of human race.

                    • Credulo, I think you meant “his” sermons not “your sermons.”

                      Before I give a more comprehensive comment, we both would agree that not all are saved. Would you say that God fails in his salvific purpose?

                    • Sorry, my English is not so good and I swap the words sometimes…

                      The most clean answer to your question – the ‘failed purpose’ of God saving anyone – uses a teaching of Arminius, the antecedent and consequent wills of God. A very good and short article about it: http://evangelicalarminians.org/burnett.A-Very-Brief-Explanation-of-Jacobus-Arminius-Doctrine-of-the-Twofold-Will-of-God

                      The ‘All Men Saved’ is not an unconditional will of God – in fact, if that were the case, the exhortation of Paul’ would be utterly useless…
                      This will depends of human answer to the Gospel preaching. God wants to save every man, but only those who doesn’t resist to your drawing call are, in fact, saved.

                      Well, this is a very straightforward Arminian answer. Nothing new, at all…

                    • Credulo, I read the link on Arminius. According to Arminius, God’s plan of salvation is constructed in terms what the sinner is going to do. For example, God the Father decided to send His Son into the world (the incarnation) as a propitiatory sacrifice because he foreknew that a few/many/enough sinners would decide to have faith and consequently be born again. So God’s purposes are dependent on man’s purposes. In Armininian terms, God’s actions are consequent upon man’s actions.

                      So, if the final decision of who is saved comes from man, then does not man rule the salvation process? Are God’s purposes constructed in terms of man’s purposes?

                      Is this your position?

                    • Well, the Bible is very clear about this point: God saves believers (John 3:16 :P).
                      Yes, the man will make a decision: if he believes, then he will be saved. If not, he will perish. Even in the Calv’s side, it is a truth.

                      But, what is the ‘God’s purpose’ and the ‘man’s purpose’ you are talking about?

                    • Credulo
                      – “Well, the Bible is very clear about this point: God saves believers (John 3:16 :P).”

                      In your view, God wants to save, tries to save but can only do what he desires – that is, fulfil his PURPOSE to save everyone without exception – IF sinners tell God to go ahead and save them. Sinners (who are dead in sin – Ephesians 2) have the final vote and thus are ultimately in control of whether they are raised to life (born again). So the fulfilment of God’s salvation plan is conditioned by man. In other words, if man “elects” (votes for) God, God will vote for him.

                      God, in your view, fails more often than not, to fulfil his purpose.

                      – “Yes, the man will make a decision: if he believes, then he will be saved. If not, he will perish. Even in the Calv’s side, it is a truth.”

                      He makes a decision to have faith in the sense that he receives/accepts God’s offer of salvation. The question is: how can someone dead (in sin) make any decision to have faith? Surely, he has to be alive to do so.

                      Ephesians 2

                      As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and THIS (neuter in the Greek refers to both grace and faith) is NOT from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”

                      – “But, what is the ‘God’s purpose’ and the ‘man’s purpose’ you are talking about?”

                      God’s purpose in anything is Isaiah 46:10, which is the Bible text of this post.
                      “My counsel (purpose) shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (I will accomplish my purpose).”

                      With regard to salvation here are a few relevant Bible passages:

                      John 1:12-13
                      12 As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

                      Credulo, you say, with Arminius, that you first will to receive Christ and then you are born again. But the cause, as is clear in verse 13 is not your will, but God’s will.

                      Romans 9:15-16 makes the same point:

                      He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

  2. re. Isaiah 46:9-10 .. Yes! God does as He pleases. God does not fit into iether one of your ‘categories’ . God cannot be measured by the World’s standards. God is beyond our understanding. .. Accept scriptures as they are, because it is true that both these arguments stand in the scriptures. Its no use frustrating oneself over trying to work out how God works things. God is beyond our understanding – He is beyond us. Yes, a great King who does as He pleases. We are just fools in trying to understand or categorise things that are beyond us. That is why we are to receive the Kingdom of God as a child .. “15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” -Mark 10:15. We study Gods word as it comes. Danger lies when we try flex our “intelectual’ muscle for all to see. We are to preach the good news and that is all. Only the good news – without flexing muscles otherwise we stand the risk of taking our eyes of our Father in Heaven and turning our eyes onto our lovely intelect muscles ~

    “14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g] ” -Rom 10:8-15

    • Every human being, says the New Testament, deserves damnation.

      Salvation is granted to Israel – a stump of a stump ultimately – because God ordained it. God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy.

      And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (Exodus 33:19).

      John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

      Whoever the Father draws, therefore, will be raised without fail, and thus this does not depend on the will of man but on God. Once saved (born again) always saved. You can only be born again once.

      John 1:12-13
      As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, NOR OF THE WILL of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL of man, but of God.

      These two texts from John are clear and thus do not require a massive intellect. This is also true of most of the Bible. The crucial thing is that these two texts are among the key texts around which the whole salvation process rotates. Those who are born again are NOT born as a result of a decision they make. Karen, all those other “mysterious” texts become much clearer when seen in the light of John 1:13.

      You don’t see it because you think that only a horrible God would “destroy” our free will. But God doesn’t destroy one’s ability to do what one wants. The issue is that what man wants is not God (of the Bible). Your gripe is that God chooses to save some and not others. It’s not fair. But!

      Romans 9:14-23
      What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not OF HIM THAT WILLETH NOR OF HIM THST RUNNETH, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
      19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
      22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

      This, naturally, is nonsense to the Jew – first – and to the Gentile; and to the Arminian (like you Karen); unless the Father draws them.

      Your quotation from Romans, namely,

      “14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” -Rom 10:8-15.

      The above tells us that God’s means for achieving his ends is send, preach, hear, call on God. The above does not tell us that those who call on God among all those who hear are enabled to do so because God chose them (first) and thus made them free. “I chose you, you didn’t choose me (first).” This freedom is not the freedom (will) of man/the flesh, of an unregenerate heart, but of the heart that has been “splashed” (as you vividly described it) with eternal life.

      You recommend less noggin because so much is mystery. Much of the Aposte Paul, because he was teaching, relied on meticulous thought. Without theology (which relies much on our brains (hence “ology”), you may end up with, “give me less doctrine and more Jesus,” less noggin and more snoggin’.

      Karen, I ask you a question. Would you attend a church whose pastor believed that God first regenerates a person enabling (making him free) to accept the gift of faith, which he will certainly receive with a grateful, joyful heart?

  3. THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN SLIGHTLY SHORTENED TO FOCUS ON THE MAIN ISSUE, WHICH IS HOW A PERSON COMES TO FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND ITS CONNECTION TO A PERSON’S ABILITY TO DO SO.

    John 6:44 – .. this is a lesson about hungering for the bread of Life, because the people who were following Him were hungering for the wrong bread and the true bread of life slipped them by.

    Is it not true that hard learning and following do not necessarily equate to seeking God in your heart and eating the bread of life? Although, the latter is manifested sometimes as the former but mostly, or firstly through the fruits of the Spirit. Believe in the bread of life. Take of it & believe in it. .. so do we take of it and believe in it? Does God make us take of it and believe in it? Do we take of it and God causes us to believe in it? We can not take of it if we don’t believe in it right? We can’t come to Jesus if we don’t believe in Him, or can we? – and do we know the hearts of people? That sinners are sometimes at the point where they are ready to be saved or harvested – and those sinners sitting in church are sometimes so far from God?

    God has chosen His own means to fulfil his will – I agree completely. His will .. ‘For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day’ –John 6:40.

    Are those sinners, who humbly repent of their sin and seek Gods’ will (which is for them to look to the SoN; believe), the ones who are truly saved? In that, the ones who repent of their sin, because they are without excuse (they know right from wrong) and they have sought God.

    Are these those who are given? Those who look to the Son and believe?
    45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me (John 6:40).

    “The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them” (John 6:63-35)

    “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.) .. God had allowed Judas to ‘come to him’

    Raphael, by saying that I am using the verses (Isaiah 7:16, Deut. 1:39, Rom. 2:15, Rom. 5:14, Rom. 9:11, Rom. 2: 14,15) to “prove that man has a good nature” you only reveal the true intent of your heart. You know this is not the case and your statement seems to twist what I clearly am trying to show in God’s Word.. that is that there is an age of accountability. That we are without excuse. .. This reveals God as a Just God. Tell me then if there is no ‘age of accountability’ in your worldview – Do YOU believe that babies and children who die at a young age will not be saved? (John 1:12-13).

    Please elaborate where I have denied original sin?? This is a careless; decEItful statement coming from a proud heart! I have only confirmed Genesis – that we have a knowledge of Good and evil (‘..17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Gen 1:17; ““The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil” Gen 1:22)

    • Karen, I’m sorry I upset you. Let me try and clarify.

      You began:

      “Man sins despite his upright nature – Eccl. 7:29
      Created in Gods image Gen. 9:6, I Cor. 11:7, James 3:9 every sinner is the author of his own moral depravity. He becomes a sinner after he reaches the “age of accountability Isaiah 7:16, Deut. 1:39, Rom. 2:15, Rom. 5:14, Rom. 9:11
      Gods law is written in our hearts Rom. 2: 14,15”

      -“Man sins despite his upright nature” he is”created in Gods image.”

      My response: Man does not have an “upright nature.” Only Adam and Eve had an upright nature before they disobeyed God (the Fall). The doctrine of Original teaches that we – in a way unknown to us – are, like Adam and Eve, fallen creatures, that is, our natures are not upright but downright corrupt to the core – from conception. The image of God in man has become corrupted.

      – “Every sinner is the author of his own moral depravity. He becomes a sinner after he reaches the “age of accountability.”

      My response: Every sinner is – as you say, responsible for his own moral depravity. But then you say something that contradicts the doctrine of Original sin, which, you say, you have not denied. What is the nature of your denial? This: you say that a sinner only becomes a sinner after he reaches the age of accountability. We need to distinguish between 1. the sin “nature,” which the doctrine of Original says begins at conception, and 2. sins we commit in this life. So there is the sin nature (Original sin) and individual sins.

      Now it is clear than individual sins are the expression of the sin nature; the two are inextricably bound to each other. The point is that a person does not only become a sinner (the attitude, state of loving sin) when he reaches the “age of accountability” (the age of reason) whose starting point is difficult to determine, for even two-years olds are good at playing the one parent against the other. But this point of “age of accountability” does not touch the root of sin, which is that from the womb (as David said) he was conceived in sin (which, some rabbis argue, has got nothing to do with Original sin but with the sex act – silly).

      • No you did not upset me – I was just upset on your part because incorrect & un-checked accusations reveal a wrongful intent. That makes me sad.

        We are born INTO sin. Concieved by our parents out of a sinful world. We are individually accountable for our own sin, it is not passed down from our father (Ezekiel 18:20). Original sin means, the First Sin. Because of Adam & the consequences of the Original sin, the world continues to sin.
        Ok, with a foot on your side of the fence lets consider Psalm 58:3 then. Estranged from the womb? Those who speak lies have gone astray from birth? As we can now affirm through science, from the womb the baby is already developing and is affected by sin. However, this passage does not say that the baby is accountable from the womb.

        Raph you did not answer my question. Do you believe that a baby/child that dies at a young age is condemned? Was Jesus Christ born a sinner or was he born into a sinful world? (Read Isaiah 7:14-16 – 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.[a] 15 He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.)

        Read this & it makes sense ~ .. ok I havent gone through the website so dont know what else they talk about, this is just on the study of the brain. Its very interesting, and as we would expect as Christians, science does confirm what we already know & have been taught through the Spirit & scriptures 😉

        (http://are-you-for-real.com/faith/how-to-stop-toxic-thoughts-from-poisoning-your-brain/

        There is a point in your brain called the “free will” and it is a genetic structure, there is genetic code. You can use that free will to accept or reject that incoming information. So if you are controlling your thought life, you don’t have to just receive all of this input that is coming in from the outside world, from the media, from external and also from your internal world; we’ve got a lot of existing toxic memories in our head, everything from birth to death is stored in your brain. )

        Therefore, this fits perfectly into the doctrine of the age of accountability (Isaiah 7:14-16 etc.) Raphael, I know you are going to say the website hints that we have the ability to perfect ourselves – I dont believe this is true, but just that we are accountable for sin – right down to our thoughts. Our thoughts are influenced by our heart and Only God can change our heart.

        “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.” (1 John 3:4)

        • Karen, you said: “We are born INTO sin. Concieved by our parents out of a sinful world. We are individually accountable for our own sin, it is not passed down from our father (Ezekiel 18:20). Original sin means, the First Sin. Because of Adam & the consequences of the Original sin, the world continues to sin. Ok, with a foot on your side of the fence lets consider Psalm 58:3 then. Estranged from the womb? Those who speak lies have gone astray from birth? As we can now affirm through science, from the womb the baby is already developing and is affected by sin. However, this passage does not say that the baby is accountable from the womb.”

          According to the (Anglican) Westminister confession of faith, which I would think you have no objection to, Here is what “original sin” is:

          http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

          (The numbers in square brackets are references to scripture, which you can find by going to the above URL and clicking on the numbers)

          Chapter VI

          Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

          I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]

          II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]

          III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]

          IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

          V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]

          VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

          Here are the scripture references for “wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]”

          [5] TIT 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. GEN 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

          Karen, you said: “Raph you did not answer my question. Do you believe that a baby/child that dies at a young age is condemned? Was Jesus Christ born a sinner or was he born into a sinful world? (Read Isaiah 7:14-16 – 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.[a] 15 He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.)”

          My answer: Every human, from conception, has a fallen nature, Jesus excepted. I don’t believe deceased babies and small children are sent to hell, but I do believe that they – because they are of the race of Adam – are condemned (as the doctrine of Original sin above) teaches). Every human is condemned no matter their age. It’s only God’s mercy (remember Romans 9, “I will have mercy on whom I [want to] have mercy”] that saves. The Bible is silent on what happens to dead babies. The Roman Church, up to Vatican 2 (1962 thereabouts) used to have the doctrine of “limbo,” which caused mayhem for 19 centuries among grieving parents. My personal belief is that God’s mercy extends to dead babies, but as I said it’s not in scripture. I don’t worry about things that God doesn’t tell us (what he does tell us comes from scripture alone, not so?). And I don’t worry myself to death about WHY all human beings are born with a sin nature which, for me is the most difficult of all the doctrines. I do struggle with it, though.

          About free will being built into the genetic code, I didn’t know they had found the gene for free will.

          Your following statement reminds me that everyone is an Arminian on their feet and a Calvinist on their knees.

          “Our thoughts are influenced by our heart and Only God can change our heart.”

          Here is Charles Spurgeon’s “An Arminian’s Prayer”:

          “Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace.

          “If everybody had done the same with their grace that 1 have, they might all have been saved.

          “Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but l do.

          There are many that wilI go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as l am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”

          https://onedaringjew.wordpress.com/2010/10/05/an-arminians-prayer-by-charles-spurgeon/

          To return to your “Our thoughts are influenced by our heart and Only God can change our heart.” This was written on your knees, you secret Calvinist, you! Everything else you wrote, you wrote on your feet (you can now put your socks back on).

          • ha! you caught me out!! Yes, perhaps I am one of the privilaged few who God has decided to have mercy on. If so, Lucky me! Poor souls who God decided He didnt want.. oh well, tough luck to them! Yes, I must be special if I was chosen over the others…. or Perhaps there simply isnt enough space up there, or on the new earth for all of us… God must just be playing games with us when the subject of Seeking God comes up around 244 times in His Word… maybe its just a sick joke on those He hasn’t chosen! Oh yes! Of course!! God Makes us to seek Him.. then why does He complain all the time that no-one Seeks God?? Odd…

            “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God” (Romans 3, 11).

            And in that case, Adam himself should have Seeked after God in the first place instead of seeking after the will of Satan. Now, How did that come about?? Did God not chose Adam? .. Or Did Adam have the ability to Choose his will in the first place? Did God create Adam with the ability to choose his will in the first place? Perhaps Almighty, Sovereign God does not NEED man-robots. Perhaps God wanted to create man in His image… Hey! The Bible tells us that, doesnt it? .. Perhaps when Adam chose not to seek Gods will but his own will, which led to the sin of disobeying God and eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of Good & Evil, He brought sin into the world, became accountable for his own sin, and caused mankind to be accountable for his own sin individually (hence the name, Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil)? Hey! The bible tells us that too!

            So, Raphael – you have difficulty in working out How God does it? Well, lets be humble enough to realize that “Gods ways are above our ways” and that we will never understand how He works it out.

            Seriously – the best thing for you to do is to seek after Gods will. In Everything. .. i.e. why am i doing this? Is this my will? Am I looking for credit & glory from Men? Am I seeking Gods will in all the things I do? If this be the case, am I doing it as God would have me do it?

            Because essentially Raphael, your arguments smacks of excuse for those who arent “chosen”. Whereas God clearly says that we are without excuse. Justice is fair and fair on both sides. Punishing a baby for breaking a glass is wrong isnt it? Because the baby shouldnt have had the glass in the first place. The parent put the glass in the baby’s hand and that sin may cause the child harm, but if the child seeks to do the right thing, the child will learn and grow and may be accepted into higher places. … can you understand that analogy?

            I dont know how to put it because I’m just a child trying to grasp things that are way above me. But I know what the Word teaches and I believe it in its wholeness. God has blessed us with a mind and desire to understand. He has given us the tools, the sword of truth – His word – and we are to have enough faith to understand it in the simplest sense. As it is given. It is and was always the biggest theologens who fell the hardest – those who sat at tables & argued these things with the loudest voices, in order to gain attention & glory. .. Personally, I reject that kind of glory. It is second-rate shaiza.

            I’m sorry, but your theology just does not make sense, logically or Scripturally on a whole (because we know, the whole puzzle must & does fit together – we can’t use pieces of scripture..)

            Anyway your title speaks volumes. Out of the mouth the heart talks. .. try be respectful..

            Kind regards, and only with the best wishes in all sincerity ~

            • another thing re my prev. comment on the will of Adam. .. cant you separate people’s will from God’s will? God created us with the ability to chose – we have our own wills. Even if we change our will to seek after God, does not change whether God decides to have mercy on us or not… Think about that, because its the crux of the matter no so? You & your fellows in the same box have a good but perhaps misplaced intent in that you dont want to take the power away from God? Yet God will blind those who follow Man’s intellect above Gods word. .. forget about the boxes, Raphael.

              • Karen,

                Before I reply to your critique I need to know what you consider unbiblical about the Westminster Confession’s description of “original sin.” Or do you feel there is no need because you have already spelled out what you think the Bible is saying on the issue?

                Added later:
                Is there anything you would disagree with in this view of sin:

                “The basis of our relationship with God means that the fact that we are alive means that God has hope for us. He put us here for a reason; he didn’t put us here to destroy us. so, if after we have sinned we are still alive then there is still hope for us…and we’re not lost. And then he will want to have a relationship with us. In a certain sense, one of my tutors taught that the after effect of the sin is worse than the sin. If the sin makes you give up on life, you don’t find a relationship with God then it’s worse than the sin itself. As long as you’re alive, God wanted to have interaction with human beings…they have the capacity to sin. He knew it was going to happen. That’s part of our struggle. That’s what He wanted, so after we made a mistake – people are constantly making mistakes; it’s not just did I do and action, didn’t I do an action? – God demanded us to love kindness. To love kindness, that’s a state of being that we have constantly to grow on. I say for myself that I could certainly love kindness more than I love kindness do now, and I hope that tomorrow will be a better day, and the day after even better. I’ll try. But that’s part of life, that’s part of our relationship with God; it’s to grow in these areas. The way I look at all the positive commandments is that these are things that God created to allow us to infuse more godliness into our life. He gave us the commandments to sanctify us. In other words, to allow godliness to infuse our life. So after we sin, actually forget about after we sin; wherever we are, when we were born we had what to improve on and what to grow in, and we’re constantly growing. A person who is not growing can only be dead. As long as you’re alive – you’re a created being – you’re not going to be perfect, and you’ll only be able too grow more; and God gave us the opportunity to infuse more godliness in our life – constantly.

  4. Re the (Anglican) Westminister confession of faith – Personally, i dont subscribe to any particular group or category as you should know. Whether Arminian/Calvanism/Anglican/Penticostal/Catholic etc etc. So you need to think out of the box 🙂 .. so to speak. Interpretations are dangerous.

    The truth learnt as a child, will be revealed in its wholeness and in season.
    There is no place for pompous & prideful assumptions & interpretations based on Philosophy. Philosophy is our shortfall – and this is what your categories are based on. Mans own intellectual wisdom.

    • It would be useful if you could say what you find in the Westminster Confession that is unbiblical. Here is is again:

      http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

      (The numbers in square brackets are references to scripture, which you can find by going to the above URL and clicking on the numbers)

      Chapter VI

      Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

      I. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.[1] This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.[2]

      II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,[3] and so became dead in sin,[4] and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.[5]

      III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]

      IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]

      V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]

      VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto,[13] does in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner,[14] whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God,[15] and curse of the law,[16] and so made subject to death,[17] with all miseries spiritual,[18] temporal,[19] and eternal.[20]

  5. Pingback: Philosophy Shmephosophy: John Owen strutting his Calvinist stuff « OneDaringJew
  6. For Saint Augustine and many God is omniscience and He knows then that many will not answer to his words. It is the atemporality that makes the difference if we have to consider the plan of salvation….predestination and grace work in parallel. If God knows who is going to be saved or not because there is no before and after for him is man free to act toward his salvation? Yes he is because man doesn’t know what is going to be before and after as God does…The salvation of man is in his limits The fact that God knows who is going to answer his call doesn’t interfere with man operandi. And also there is an extemporaneity in our understanding of free will. Mister as I told you before the Bible indicates that men went out of favor and regain God’s favor numerous times…meaning that their actions were important. I know that if I act not accordingly to His word I am going to lose Him again….But I am not going to do it and I have already known my relationship with Him in both ways…I will not lose him again also because I act every day in a way that keeps my relationship on the right path…I pray in the way that is told to me. Before when I was not in a good relationship with Him I still prayed but my prayers were not aligned…I is important (even thought not essential) to know and to practice the right ceremony and the actions of salvation to keep the relationship in good shape. I don’t understand why the relationship with God for you does have to defy every other kind of relationship we know. You love your children and your children love you but there are relationship that I know of among parents and children that have been completely ruined by the way the children or the parents behaved. Now why do you think what we do is not going to promote our grace with God is still strange to me when you know and I know that even if you have being ‘awaken’ you still could condemn yourself to sleep if you are not apt to the call or if your cerimony is not the right one…I think all this Armenian or not Armenian idea that you have is based on your fear of Purgatory 🙂 and It is ok… But you think that for you is a very rational position. He gave me the means, the situations and I took them and I took them because I was ready to..in every story that counts there are concurrent factors ..It is a natural relationship and it is fulfilled in the reciprocality of our searching for each other….Why do I have to consider a relationship so less meanful as you propose 🙂 But we already said this before

    • I think its a lack of faith that one feels one is taking away the sovereignty of God if man plays any role. But to me it is the opposite. Gods sovereignty is magnified by the creation of man in his image, with free will. And this is what it is. Free will. It also magnifies God as Judge. I dont believe that Adam is all to blame. We are all to blame because our wills have decieved us. All we can do is believe that God has given us the most wonderful gift – a sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ, and we need humbly come to the father and beg forgiveness. There is no excuse – everyone deep down knows of God and is convicted in their hearts. .. I would never preach that God sits on His throne and points out which of the bunch of sinners He is going to turn to him and which He will leave for destruction. Why? Because, for God so loved the world ….

      • Karen, how does your “free will” fit in with
        John 1:12-13
        12 As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

  7. ‘Do you really believe that God gets a kick out of failure? Yep, that’s what you must think AND not think. That’s why you need a kick in your Arminian pants.’
    I actually think God gets a kick of having a wholesome reaching out relationship…as humans do :-). If to reach this you are going to reach out sometimes without finding it is such a ‘kick out’ when it actually does…Are you a man who plays? It doesn’t seem you are If you were a truly sport man you would know where you get your ‘kick out’…and it is not in a winning losing white and black way. I have to go and ask someone I know that is all into sport/game, my son, and then I will get back to you 🙂

    • Maria, how do you understand this passage?

      Ephesians 2

      As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved.

      • I understand that we are saved by grace at the beginning…I don’t read or understand in it that therefore we are not supposed to pray and act in accordance with his will once we are saved by grace. Have you ever read in Paul that people who once were ‘saved’ and believed were going astray? I think I did. And by the way why is it so important for you to be saved only by grace? If you were born calvinist I would assume it was due to your tradition but in your case why are you so into calvinism? And do not tell me it is written in the scripture I am reading the same passage and I still don’t see why I am supposed to be calvinist.I tell you there is some irrational reason why you are calvinist 🙂 Why does it matter so much for you to be saved only throught grace? Are you afraid of losing Him or being rejected by him afterword? Is it possible fear of future rejection at the base of your reason to be calvinist? But you want to put it on a rational side

  8. My son thought that I was trying to put in question his will to play the games or to question the meaning of his being into sport. I had to tell him that I was not trying to dissuade him to be in sports too much (something that I do often :-)…Meaning that the question was a good question for him.
    For my son the ‘kick out’ in playing is about the fact that everything you do relates…all your moves are in relationship and to play well it means you are playing the ‘all is related’ factor of the game. I was right mister eventhought I am not in games…unfortunatelly i would say

  9. A very complex comment, indeed! I need to use Emacs to read and answer it.Sorry my really bad English here…
    My answer is between the curly braces {}:

    – “Well, the Bible is very clear about this point: God saves believers (John 3:16 ).”

    In your view, God wants to save, tries to save but can only do what he desires – that is, fulfil his PURPOSE to save everyone without exception – IF sinners tell God to go ahead and save them. Sinners (who are dead in sin – Ephesians 2) have the final vote and thus are ultimately in control of whether they are raised to life (born again). So the fulfilment of God’s salvation plan is conditioned by man. In other words, if man “elects” (votes for) God, God will vote for him.

    {1 – The ‘all men saved’ is an antecedent, conditional will of God.
    God will put no restrictions to save human race, and will give some chance to any human being. Anyone!
    So, if a man was not saved, it was not because God never wanted to save him…

    2 – In a debate against Austin Dacey, William Lane Craig explained that God wants a genuine loving relationship with the human being. So, it is almost contradictory that God ‘forces’ ou ‘irresistibly regenerates’ only a bunch of men…

    3 – What is the ‘salvation plan’ you are talking about?

    4 – ‘Dead in sin’… A very old Calvinist misrepresentation, indeed.
    Well, Rev. John Fletcher has a good answer to this argument, and I will resume it here:
    IF a ‘dead in sin’ can’t listen to Gospel (except if ‘previously regenerated’), THEN a ‘dead to sin’ can’t sin (except if ‘previously killed’)?}

    God, in your view, fails more often than not, to fulfil his purpose.4

    {Hey! What is my ‘vision’ you are talking about? I even said anything about my ‘vision’.
    The purpose of God is to save believers.
    Or does God save unbelievers?Or, even worse, doesn’t God save believers?}

    – “Yes, the man will make a decision: if he believes, then he will be saved. If not, he will perish. Even in the Calv’s side, it is a truth.”

    He makes a decision to have faith in the sense that he receives/accepts God’s offer of salvation. The question is: how can someone dead (in sin) make any decision to have faith? Surely, he has to be alive to do so.

    {Prevenient Grace. Now, the long answer: A ‘dead in sin’ man CAN in fact respond to the Gospel invitation, by the atractive power of Holy Spirit.

    The ‘regenerated before believing’ approach is very problematic, indeed:
    * To be born again, the sin must be removed – in fact, ‘dead in sin’ leaves no room for doubt ;p
    * The sin is removed by the Blood of Jesus.
    * The Blood is applied by faith.

    So, logically, believing is before regenerating.}

    – “But, what is the ‘God’s purpose’ and the ‘man’s purpose’ you are talking about?”

    God’s purpose in anything is Isaiah 46:10, which is the Bible text of this post.
    “My counsel (purpose) shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (I will accomplish my purpose).”
    {Rather vague, but OK…}

    With regard to salvation here are a few relevant Bible passages:

    John 1:12-13
    12 As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    {Receive God, and so be born again. Against the ‘regenerated before believing’…}

    Credulo, you say, with Arminius, that you first will to receive Christ and then you are born again. But the cause, as is clear in verse 13 is not your will, but God’s will.

    {The God’s will is just to regenerate as many as received him. First, receive; then, be regenerated. No room to doubt.
    The regenerating process is all of God, but ‘believe in Christ’ is NOT part of this process…}

    Romans 9:15-16 makes the same point:

    He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    {So… what?}

    • He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

      {So… what?}

      What do you say this means?

      I shall answer your other points shortly.

  10. Pingback: The plan of salvation: Ïs it worth the risk, my Son? « OneDaringJew

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