For the Jew who rejects Christ, is there no salvation? What do you think!

A prevalent kind of “messianic Jew” is a believer in the Messiah who continues to practice the Mosaic law. Some of these will say that a Jew who rejects the Messiah revealed in the New testament is condemned, while others will say that as long as a Jew is obedient to Torah, he will be saved. And yet other messianic Jews will make a linguistic thing of it and say that they reject the Christianised “Jesus Christ” but accept the Judaic Yeshua HaMashiach. This last sentiment is of no significance in the plan of salvation (Jesus means nothing, Yeshua everything: Messianic Judaism versus Christianity?)

The New Testament is clear: all who reject the Christ – Jew and Gentile – will not enter the Kingdom of God, no matter how near they may be to it. The law may bring a person near but, because there is an unbridgeable chasm between law and (New Testament) grace, near or not far is not good enough. The flaw in Judaism is the belief that the law saves. The New Testament teaches that no one can be good enough to merit salvation. 

In response to Jesus, a teacher of the law says:

Mark 12

32 “Well said, teacher,” the man (teacher of the law) replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.” 

Not only Jews but many Christians say – it is particularly prevalent among modern Roman Catholics – that these two commandments are the gateway to salvation; to the Kingdom of God. Thus, salvation is the result of fulfilling the law. Now, when you think about it a little more, who on earth loves the Lord with all their understanding and strength – and loves their neighbour in a similar way, for that is what “’love your neighbour as yourself “implies? First, it can’t be done, and second, to try and fulfill these two laws may bring you closer to the Kingdom but never into the Kingdom. “Not far” from the Kingdom is still outside it. On this crucial point, the letters to the Romans and Galatians are clear. 

Romans 3 

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 

Galatians 3 

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 

Back up to Romans 2 and the beginning of Romans 3: 

“”For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.” (Romans 2:25-29 ESV). 

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. (Romans 3:1-2 ESV).

Here’s the nub: because they were entrusted with the ‘’oracles” ( logion, the utterances of the Mosaic law) ), their guilt is even more pronounced. Towards those Jews who reject Him, Jesus words in John 8 don’t mince:

“So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.” (John 8:31-45 ESV). 

There remains a believing remnant, of both Jews and Gentiles, who will inherit eternal life; not as a right but as a gift. These are those whom the Father has given to the Son: 

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” (John 6:35-37 ESV).

Earlier, we read: “Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God (Romans 3:1-2a). 

We read on: 

What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, ‘That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.’” (Romans 3:2b-4 ESV).

Jew or Gentile, no matter how much they try to fulfill the first and second commandment, they cannot be saved (in effect, save themselves) by their righteous deeds. It goes without saying, mate, that faith without works is מֵת (dead mate).

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49 thoughts on “For the Jew who rejects Christ, is there no salvation? What do you think!

  1. I believe ‘anyone’ who rejects Jesus Christ will not enter heaven. The Bible clearly tells us this…as you quoted supporting scriptures above. There is no other way to heaven but through Jesus Christ..He is the way, the truth, and the life..no man comes unto the Father except by Him.

      • John 9 Jesus heals the blind man

        24 A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God by telling the truth,” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.”

        25 He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

        26 Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

        27 He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”

        28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”

        30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

        34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.

        Spiritual Blindness

        35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”

        36 “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”

        37 Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”

        38 Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.

        39 Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

        40 Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, “What? Are we blind too?”

        41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

  2. Raphybog, I am in agreement with you here; [There remains a believing remnant, of both Jews and Gentiles, who will inherit eternal life; not as a right but as an gift. These are those whom the Father has given to the Son:] The apostles John wrote; 10 The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son. 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
    13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:10-13 NASB Paul the apostle wrote that Abraham and King David were justified by faith and so is every Jew and gentile. 4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

    7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
    And whose sins have been covered.
    8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”

    9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.” 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.

    13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

    16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, Romans 4 NASB

    • Dan

      Here is Dr Schiffman, a prominent Messianic Jew and teacher.

      “Messianic Judaism affirms that the Jewish people, believing in Yeshua or not, have been, are, and will always be the chosen people of God. The only nation God ever linked His name to in Scripture is Israel, calling Himself, the God of Israel. Scripture tells us His promises to Israel are eternal, and extend to the sons of Jacob, the House of Israel, known today as the Jewish People. Those leaders of the church did not affirm this. To them, 2000 years of post-Yeshua Jewish history, a history of spirituality and suffering for being Jewish, was worthless. In their view, 2000 years of Jewish unbelief in Yeshua means Twenty centuries of Jews went to hell. I have to confess that the concept doesn’t sit well with me. For Yeshua to be the Messiah of Israel, he would have to be good for the Jews. If his coming resulted in twenty centuries of Jewish people going to hell, the bottom line is, he wasn’t very good for the Jews. Either he wasn’t the Messiah, or the doctrinal understanding is wrong. I believe the latter.”
      http://drschiffman.wordpress.com/2012/10/04/messianic-judaism-and-christianity-two-religions-with-the-same-messiah/

      How do you understand the above passage in terms of your comment?

        • Romans 11:26-27
          all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

          If I understand you correctly, Dan, you understand the above verses to mean that every Jew who follows Torah, irrespective of whether he believes in Yeshua, will enter through the narrow gate. Have I understood?

          • Nope! I understand it as God will make all Israel to believe….There shall come out of ZION a deliverer…It does not say, there shall come out of South Africa a deliverer….

            • “Does “there SHALL come,” apply to say, you, if, say, you died tonight as an unbeliever in Yeshua. (we know of course, that you are a believer).

              Hey, and be nice.

              • This is not the issue we are discussing. I disagreed with your assertion that within MJ there is an understanding that: ” ..As long as a Jew is obedient to Torah, he will be saved.” And I was trying to let you understand that Dr. Schiffman is not saying what you say he is saying.

                ( as a language guy, you should understand what I just said…LOL!)

                  • I need to help you? I thought you knew English?

                    Schiffman: ““Messianic Judaism affirms that the Jewish people, believing in Yeshua or not, have been, are, and will always be the chosen people of God. ”

                    Me: Deut. 7:6-8. No brainer….

                    Schiffman: “The only nation God ever linked His name to in Scripture is Israel, calling Himself, the God of Israel. Scripture tells us His promises to Israel are eternal, and extend to the sons of Jacob, the House of Israel, known today as the Jewish People. ”

                    Me: Can you refute it from Scriptures? As a Calvinist don’t you affirm election?

                    • Regarding the Jews, election in the NT refers only to the “Israel of God,” which all three of us surely agree is the Jewish people. You and Dr Schiffman – this is the point I have been gently trying to tease out of you (you have been doing teasing as well, of a second kind, which has been obfuscating matters a bit):

                      Not all Israel are Israel. Innit? The irrevocable covenant in Romans 11 does not extend to all Jews without exception. In the light of this, I ask you (again), if a Torah observant Jew who rejects Yeshua as the Messiah dies today, will Yeshua welcome him into the house of his father?

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  4. “In the light of this, I ask you (again), if a Torah observant Jew who rejects Yeshua as the Messiah dies today, will Yeshua welcome him into the house of his father?”

    One more time….This is not the topic of the discussion…The topic is: “… ” ..As long as a Jew is obedient to Torah, he will be saved.” You said that Messianic Jews believe that. I disagreed. You tried to say that Schiffman believes it and I showed you he is not.

    It does not matter what I think. What matters is that you have yet to prove that MJ teach salvation outside of Yeshua. Scriptures say that unbelieving Israel will be saved when they see the One whom they have pierced and will mourn for Him….

    Get a hold of yourself…..

    • So, according to you, Dr Schiffman’s “Jewish people will always be the chosen people of God” does NOT mean that those who rejected Yeshua in the past or reject him now (until such time that “they will look on him whom they have pierced”) have been/will be saved.

        • I’m talking about salvation in the NT, which does not apply to anyone – Jew or Gentile – who does not believe or rejects Yeshua as the Messiah, while you are talking about sanctification.

          All I want to establish is whether you believe that after the advent of Yeshua, a follower of Torah could be saved if he rejects Yeshua Messiah. No, i’m not jumping from Dr Schiffman’s pot into your fire; so easy on the ire please.

          You say that Dr Schiffman believes that a Torah Jew who rejects Yeshua CANNOT be saved. According to you this must be so, because you say all messianic Jews believe that without faith in Yeshua no one can be saved. Or what?

          The “looking on him whom they pierced” only happens when Messiah returns. Only then will God take out ISRAEL’s heart of stone and, by a sovereign act, draw “all Israel” to him. This sovereign act of drawing and granting faith is how God works in every person he saves.

          • “You say that Dr Schiffman believes that a Torah Jew who rejects Yeshua CANNOT be saved. According to you this must be so, because you say all messianic Jews believe that without faith in Yeshua no one can be saved. ”

            This is exactly what I say. Now prove to me that MJ teach the opposite… The issue is not history, the issue is what MJ teaches….

            • I quote again Dr Schiffman, which I quoted in my comment of 8 Nov.

              “Messianic Judaism affirms that the Jewish people, believing in Yeshua or not, have been, are, and will always be the chosen people of God. The only nation God ever linked His name to in Scripture is Israel, calling Himself, the God of Israel. Scripture tells us His promises to Israel are eternal, and extend to the sons of Jacob, the House of Israel, known today as the Jewish People.”

              According to you, Schiffman means that those Jews who reject Yeshua – which means they are not saved – remain God’s chosen people even though cut off from God for eternity, because as you say all MJs believe that in order to be saved, you need to believe in Yeshua.

              I find it hard to see it that way. It seems to me a description of the “Two-house” theory of Hagee. Jews are saved if they remain faithful to their covenant, and Christians are saved under their covenant. If Schiffman doesn’t mean this by the above quote, how does God love lost Jews in hell, and how does that help them?

              • Let’s break it up…

                ““Messianic Judaism affirms that the Jewish people, believing in Yeshua or not, have been, are, and will always be the chosen people of God. The only nation God ever linked His name to in Scripture is Israel, calling Himself, the God of Israel. Scripture tells us His promises to Israel are eternal, and extend to the sons of Jacob, the House of Israel, known today as the Jewish People.”

                Do you disagree with this, and if yes, why?

                “According to you, Schiffman means that those Jews who reject Yeshua – which means they are not saved – remain God’s chosen people even though cut off from God for eternity, because as you say all MJs believe that in order to be saved, you need to believe in Yeshua.”

                Why do you keep ignoring the corporate aspect of this? Israel is the only nation that ever received a covenant from God, no?

                “I find it hard to see it that way. It seems to me a description of the “Two-house” theory of Hagee. Jews are saved if they remain faithful to their covenant, and Christians are saved under their covenant. If Schiffman doesn’t mean this by the above quote, how does God love lost Jews in hell, and how does that help them?”

                The subject is not salvation, the subject is if Mj teach that Torah observant non believing Jews are saved or not. MJ does not teach this….

                • Yes, there is corporate factor. When Messiah returns a remnant (not all Israel are of Israel) will look on him whom they have pierced and he will draw them to him and save them.

                  Here is Schiffman again:
                  “Messianic Judaism affirms that the Jewish people, believing in Yeshua or not, have been, are, and will always be the chosen people of God.”

                  So if a Jew does not believe, he will always be chosen even though he is rejected. Makes no sense.

                    • Deut 30

                      1. When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, 2 and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes[a] and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you.

                      Moses is prophesying the future when curses will be replaced with blessings when in
                      repentance Israel will return to the Lord, which will end Israel’s distress. If you say that all Messianic Jews believe in Yeshsua the Messiah, this passage must refer to the ultimate salvation of Israel by faith
                      in Christ prophesied in Isaiah ( 42:4-8), Jeremiah (31:31-34), 32:32-42), Ezekiel (36:23-38), Hosea (1411-9), Joel (3:16-21), Amos (9:11-15), Zephaniah (3:14-20), Zechariah (12:10-13-9). And of course, Romans (11).

                      Romans 11
                      25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

                      “The deliverer will come from Zion;
                      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
                      27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
                      when I take away their sins.”
                      28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

                      The crucial point (can’t get away from the crucifixion) is that no all those who call themselves Israel are really Israel.

                      Romans 9
                      6. But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9 For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13 Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

                      The Bible is clear; only a remnant of Jews will be saved – those of faith in Yeshua/Jesus, the Messiah. The largest slice of that remnant will be at the “end” when God saves those who mourn after looking on him whom they have pierced.

                      The 1948 ingathering (the Zionist State) is not for restoration but for judgment.

  5. Now pay attention…

    One of the curses that is enumerated in the giving of the covenant is exile. If Israel is disobedient to the Lord, and they refuse to repent of their waywardness, God promised that he would exile them from the Land (Deut. 29:22-28). What recourse do they have in such a scenario? Is Israel forever lost if they should be exiled because of their disobedience? No!
    In Deut. 30:1-3 we read that being restored from captivity is dependant upon Israel’s willingness to return to the Lord (repentance) and to obey Him.

    But notice carefully the words that describe such obedience: “Obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all I command you today.” How could Israel, in exile, obey God in accordance with all that Moses commanded? In the land of their exile there were no functioning priesthood and no established Temple. Yet in spite of the fact that they would be unable to obey the commandments related to the priesthood and the Temple, THEIR WILLING OBEDIENCE TO THE REST OF THE COMMANDMENTS IS COUNTED BY GOD AS OBEYING THE WHOLE.

    Do you think that in the Babylonian captivity the object of faith was Yeshua?

    “The 1948 ingathering (the Zionist State) is not for restoration but for judgment.”

    And how do you know this? Did you learn this from an ignorant Catholic when you were young?

    So pay attention again, and i will be short: Read Ezek. 36:24-28 and you will see that God is bringing them back in unbelief, just as it is happening from 1948. Now read Amos 9:11-15, especially verse 15 where it says that they will never again be rooted out from their Land.

    You need to erase all the crap the catholic fed you…..

    • What you say about the Jewish restoration to the land is interesting. I think you will agree that unbelief leads to judgment. Recall that the main focus of our topic is, since the advent of Jesus/ Yeshua the messiah, there is no salvation for the Jew or anyone without faith in him.

      The fact that the Jews returned to “the land” IN UNBELIEF in 1948, was, of course ordained by God. Indeed all events are ordained by God, including the terrible annihilations such as the Babylonian, Roman and German destructions. As you know the top Zionists were unbelieving Jews; for example, Herzl and Weizmann. And most Jews in Israel and outside do not believe the Torah is God’s word. Could Yeshua return to the Mount of Olives during the next Israeli gay parade, when all Israel will look on him whom they have pierced, mourn…and be saved? No, for the Word of God is clear; only a remnant will be saved.

      Meantime, you have said that all Messianic Jews believe that a Torah-practicing Jew who rejects Yeshua – let’s say today – is not saved? What started this dialogue was my contention that Dr Schiffman, a Messianic Jewish leader, indicated that he did not believe this. Your Deut 30 passage took us away from the main topic, I don’t understand why you went there.

      I ask you again: Do you believe that Dr Schiffman’s words, which I quoted in previous replies, suggest that he believes that all Torah-observant Jews (perhaps all Jews) who have died since the time of Yeshua’s sojourn on earth, and who will die up to his return, do you believe they will all be saved in spite of rejecting Yeshua as the Messiah? (Deut 30:1-3 has no bearing on this question).

      As for the Catholic reference, what has that got to do with the price of pork?

  6. ” Recall that the main focus of our topic is, since the advent of Jesus/ Yeshua the messiah, there is no salvation for the Jew or anyone without faith in him.”

    One more time: MJ does not teach differently. This is the issue of this discussion. Schiffman does not teach differently. He never (at least in your quotes of him) talked about salvation. He spoke of election, and I am surprised that you as a Calvinist believe that the elect can lose their salvation.

    As a corporate entity Israel will be saved. Splitting heirs just shows that you really do not have a point.

    BTW Yeshua will return to the Mount of Olives anytime He wants to, not when Bography decides.

    Deut. 30 has everything to do with the subject. It lets us understand how God forgives sin.

    • Yes, as a corporate entity, Israel is the elect, and in the end “all” Israel will be saved. But not all individual Jews are saved, even if they belong to the Jewish corporate – they might as well belong to a Jewish corpse. That is the whole point of Romans 9 – Jacob have I loved and Esau I have hated. You say Dr Schiffman is talking about election not about salvation. Election without any connection to salvation is like one side of a coin having no connection to the other side. Why on earth would Dr Schiffman grieve about his Jewish brethren other than because of the prevalent belief among Messianics (we both agree on that) that Jews who reject Yeshua will not be saved. Only the elect are saved. This applies to both Jews and Gentiles.

      Elected for what? Salvation (to be saved and to witness to salvation), nothing else.

  7. BTW, Just to show how you are influenced by the anti-Jewdiac part of Christianity….I wonder why you quote Romans 9:6-13, but conveniently omit verses 4-5, where Paul describes in detail who Israel is? Does not fit your agenda?

    • Romans 9:4-5
      Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

      So, Dan, for you this means every Jewish individual is elect (Judas, for sample). Assume that they are, are you saying that all the Israelites that God had klled (through the secondary agency of Assyria, Babylon, Rome and Germany) were saved (inherited eternal life) and that through Yeshua?

      • Hey, you are not talking to children here….You very well know that I am talking about Israel’s corporate election, don’t change the subject to individuals just because you have no answer…..Been there, done that…..
        You are just showing that you have no understanding of what the process of sanctification is. You also need to show what other nation besides Israel is elect? You think Indonesia?

        • Sanctification (be holy) in the NT always follows the EFFECTUAL call of regeneration. These are the elect.
          Please help me understand how the corporate election of Israel fits in with the fact that only those individuals within the body corporate who believe Yeshua is the Messiah will be effectually called, which means regenerated, and granted eternal life: in a nut’s shell (tee hee), saved.

          • “anctification (be holy) in the NT always follows the EFFECTUAL call of regeneration. ”

            Of course you mean here the Sinai event, right? Were they the elect or the Indonesians were?

            “only those individuals within the body corporate who believe Yeshua is the Messiah will be effectually called, which means regenerated, and granted eternal life: in a nut’s shell (tee hee), saved.”

            Since you already agreed that Israel is and will be the only corporate entity that is elected, please explain what point are you trying to make?

                  • You’re obviously not a “Messianic Jew.” it seems you are of the Notzrim (Nazarenes “the Way”), or what?

                    “Elect” as a people cannot have the same meaning as those individuals (without distinction, that is, Jews and Gentiles) elected to salvation. Jesus called many of his nation, children of the father of lies. John 8. So, INDIVIDUALS of the elect NATION, will be cast into the lake of fire. You accept that, don’t you? But then, according to you, this consuming fact has no bearing on your argument that Messianic Jews believe that all Jews are elect. Elected to what?

                    https://onedaringjew.wordpress.com/2012/10/21/messiah-willhas-come-jewish-messianic-jewish-and-roman-catholic-positions/

                    • “You’re obviously not a “Messianic Jew.””

                      I believe Yeshua is Messiah and I am Jewish, so what does it make me, a Budhist Indonesian?

                      ““Elect” as a people cannot have the same meaning as those individuals (without distinction, that is, Jews and Gentiles) elected to salvation. Jesus called many of his nation, children of the father of lies. John 8. So, INDIVIDUALS of the elect NATION, will be cast into the lake of fire. You accept that, don’t you? But then, according to you, this consuming fact has no bearing on your argument that Messianic Jews believe that all Jews are elect. Elected to what?”

                      Paul knew this very well, yet he still said ALL Israel will be saved. He did not say all individuals in Israel will be saved, did he?

                    • I am a Jewish/Hebrew Christian (Christian, Greek for Messianic). Would I be, in your eyes, a “Messianic Jew?” I know that for Dr Schiffman, I wouldn’t be.

                      You have made it clear that you believe you and Paul have the same meaning of “Israel.” Forgive me for seeming obtuse, but which people in the current world population would you define as “Israel?”

  8. If you are Jewish and believe Yeshua is Messiah then you are a Messianic Jew. That does not mean that you are a member of a group that calls itself Messianic Judaism…I for one, will not be caught dead being a member of the Messianic Judaism that Schiffman espuses, why because they see their identity in Judaism, not in Messiah.

    When Paul said ALL Israel (Romans 11:26) He was not referring to individuals. He was referring to the two part of Israel: 1) Israel of God. 2) unbelieving Israel. That what ALL means to me. Unless you can prove from Scriptures that non believing Israel as a corporate entity is not Israel….I don’t think you can in light of Romans 9:3-5.

    • Just like mine. Throughout history there was always one Israel, comprised of believers and unbelievers. An unbelieving Israelite does not get thrown out of Israel. Even you believe that. You have already agreed that God brings them back to the Land in unbelief. Who? The Israelites…..

      • In what way does he centre on Judaism rather than Messiah? And do you think that many Messianic Jews do so?

        Recall your, from a previous comment:

        “I, for one, will not be caught dead being a member of the Messianic Judaism that Schiffman espouses, why because they see their identity in Judaism, not in Messiah.”

        • Try to get a hold of a book titled: “Post missionary Messianic Judaism” by Mark Kinzer. He is the Messianic Jewish guru that teaches what they call “Bilateral Ecclesiology”. Google the term and find out. It seems that big parts of MJ are falling for this bizarre doctrine.

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